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Rather than assume I understand the reason that my answer was deleted, I wanted to just post it here and open it up to public scrutiny. Special note: my answer used the non-deprecated method. It was submitted before user @a_horse_with_no_name commented about the chosen answer being deprecated. I think by all criteria it qualifies as a useful contribution to the site. Without which the only answer standing is the deprecated option. This isn't advantageous to the person asking the question, or to the rest of dba.stackexchange.com

Deleted Answer

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    Have you tried clicking the "help center" link? – billinkc Feb 1 '17 at 14:29
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    Perhaps this has something to do with it? dba.stackexchange.com/posts/162688/revisions when the OP repeatedly has to roll back your edits because he feels you're defacing his post, there is a problem. – Max Vernon Feb 1 '17 at 15:48
  • I edited a question in good faith to add DDL (CTAS). The user, clearly uninformed, complained and JColebrand removed it. There was no malice. There was no violation of being not nice. Either the users of the site were going to get a question improved with SQL-Standard DDL as is preferable by all Database Administrators, or they were going to get a useless textual table. If I lost that "fight", it's ok, but he deleted my comment explaining my downvote and vote-to-close, and he deleted my answer too. Is that a proper use of moderation? – Evan Carroll Feb 1 '17 at 16:37
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    The mods on this site seem pretty level headed to me. – paparazzo Feb 6 '17 at 18:06
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    @Paparazzi no, I'm the bad cop, and frequently play that role. Fairly intentionally. You don't normally see anyone complain because I rarely use it, but I'm the first one to ban a user normally, and I'm the first to back out of a moderation fight because I really do want most people to feel welcome, so if someone else tells me to back off, I do. In fact, the post in reference here, after I deleted all the comments, reverted all the edits, and deleted the answer above, I then walked away from the post and didn't go back. I let others step in. As is my wont. Hope this helps clarify things. – jcolebrand Feb 12 '17 at 19:06
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    @jcolebrand I am not asking for clarification. Did you even mean to write that to me? I don't follow and I find it strange. – paparazzo Feb 12 '17 at 19:20
  • You intentionally play the bad cop role.. You think the community needs that rolled filled? That's a useful role for a community that is aiming towards collaboration? @Paparazzi this is "pretty level headed"? A self-proclaimed "bad-cop." – Evan Carroll Feb 12 '17 at 19:24
  • @EvanCarroll Strange. I have never even known of jcolebrand. I live in Houston also. – paparazzo Feb 12 '17 at 19:28
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    @Paparazzi drinks? I have a dream. Proletarian revolution: no cops, especially not bad ones. We can make it so, Vote Evan Carroll in the next Moderator Election. – Evan Carroll Feb 12 '17 at 19:32
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    @Paparazzi yes, I meant to say that sometimes I do play the bad cop, and it is fair to ask if I am level headed. In that regard Evan is correct, sometimes the mods do seem to act not in the communities best interest. But as evidenced by the fact that we are still discussing this question today, we do actively intend to give the community the best outcome. Just because I may be relatively quick to close/delete a question/answer, doesn't mean that I'm not actively trying. It is fair to ask if I'm being level headed, that's all. – jcolebrand Feb 12 '17 at 19:37
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    Nahh. Actually, I was told to drop it in private message and threatened. No joke. And, jcolebrand knows that. He was on the CC'. – Evan Carroll Feb 12 '17 at 19:38
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    Oh, stop being so bloody dramatic. Do you really consider "cool down or we'll have to escalate" a threat, or do you think it is simply a warning of what will happen if your disrespectful behavior continues? What exactly did you expect to gain by coming here and trying to evoke public sympathy for only your side of the story, knowing full well that we are not able to disclose all of the bits and pieces you seem conveniently unwilling to share? – Aaron Bertrand Feb 15 '17 at 1:41
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I don't see any issues with your answer. All I can assume is that a flag was raised and @jcolebrand handled it, possibly incorrectly. There is nothing that warrants deletion in this way. If someone had an issue with your answer, which is answering the OP, then it should have been shown with voting or comments.

Your post doesn't fit any of the flags, unless I'm missing something.

enter image description here

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    Agree. Looks like a moderation error to me. @jcolebrand, any comment? – mustaccio Feb 1 '17 at 14:07
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    @mustaccio sorry for the late reply, I saw that Aaron and Erik answered exactly what the situation was, but I never responded to you. I was re-discussing the moderation of this case with another mod (yes, we do actually worry about our actions and their repercussions a-la courts) and I realized I hadn't responded directly. So the deal is that Aaron and Erik got it right. I removed MANY comments AND edits and so wanted to just remove Evan from the discussion on that post. He did not act constructively, the OP was begging us for intervention, and Evan and I had a nice chat in modmail. – jcolebrand Feb 12 '17 at 19:01
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    To me, it is unfair that after Evan and I had a complete discussion that was visible to the other moderators about my actions, that he comes here and basically asks all over again (seeking community sympathy) for why this action was taken, when he already had a complete discussion with us about why I did what I did, and other moderators backed me up. I was going for "let's not ostracize the new guy" while Evan is going "why am I being picked on for obviously bullying tactics". I hope you understand and appreciate why I asked him to please just leave the guy alone. I thought it the best course. – jcolebrand Feb 12 '17 at 19:02
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There are things that have happened behind the scenes that Evan is not being very, well, forthcoming about. I can't get into detail (though the edit war on the question is relatively public and should provide some clue), but I agree with JColebrand that removing Evan's participation from the question was not unwarranted. Two moderators (so far) agree that his being involved with that particular question involved more risk than any potential value.

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    I edited a question in good faith to add DDL (CTAS). The user, clearly uninformed, complained and JColebrand removed it. There was no malice. There was no violation of being not nice. Either the users of the site were going to get a question improved with SQL-Standard DDL as is preferable by all Database Administrators, or they were going to get a useless textual table. If I lost that "fight", it's ok, but he deleted my comment explaining my downvote and vote-to-close, and he deleted my answer too. Is that a proper use of moderation? If so, feel free to defend it here with any "details." – Evan Carroll Feb 1 '17 at 16:28
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    To the extent that I can, I already did. You need to move on. – Aaron Bertrand Feb 1 '17 at 16:30
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    @EvanCarroll: I think adding the DDL made sense, although there was no need to replace the original presentation. And I can see how the original title might have looked awkward to you, I just also can see how that could have materially changed the question in the OP's eyes. I disagree with the ctas tag's relevance but regardless of that I perfectly believe that it was an edit in good faith. Only you needn't have thrust your view of things on the OP like that. (Saying this based on the review history alone, no idea what was going on in the deleted comments or whatever is behind the scenes.) – Andriy M Feb 1 '17 at 18:00
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    All fair critiques on my own behavior. I typically tag things when I know what the questioner is looking for and what the answer consists of to ease other people finding it (dupe checking). In my own mind, the ctas is likely to help those wanting to see an example of a UNION in a CTAS. – Evan Carroll Feb 1 '17 at 18:19
  • I don't have 10k rep on this site, so wasn't able to see the deleted post and revision history. – Tanner Feb 2 '17 at 10:12
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    @Tanner you don't need 10k rep for the revision history. You can see it on the question here: dba.stackexchange.com/posts/162688/revisions Notice the comments on the revisions for revision 4 and 7. The OP clearly did not want these edits and was clearly asking Evan to stop. Max also pointed this out in a comment above. – Erik Feb 2 '17 at 15:57
  • @Erik ah... for some reason i assumed the editing was on the deleted answer, missed that the edits were on the question. thanks – Tanner Feb 2 '17 at 16:00
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Once I got into a car accident because someone merged into my lane without checking if I was there. When the cop arrived the person who merged into my lane tried to pin the crash on me because I was "passing on the right." Technically in the States you aren't supposed to overtake someone from the right lane, but I wasn't speeding and the other person crashed into me. The cop ended up writing the other driver a ticket, not me. Once they realized the cop was giving them a ticket and not me they became upset with the cop. You remind me of that driver. You appear to be angry at "the cop" and not really taking ownership of your contributions that caused the moderators to step in. It is clear based on the question edit history that the OP didn't appreciate the edits you were continually forcing on them.

edit history

Ultimately I don't know the whole story. From what I've seen of your of your combative behavior in the past, and the edit history of the question, I completely believe Aaron when he says there is more here than what you're saying. Furthermore, from what I've seen and read the moderation team we have on this site is excellent. I have absolute faith in them, and their judgment.

I agree with your claim that on the surface the screenshot of your deleted answer looks innocuous. However I'm confident that what is on the surface isn't the whole story. I don't believe that jcolebrand would randomly stumble over to your answer and delete it without cause. I've repeatedly been impressed with his professionalism during every interaction I've had with him and seen him participate in. Also he has been a mod for a long time. I find it hard to believe that he would suddenly go rogue now.

In summary, I don't know the whole story so it is impossible for me to definitively say if the mods actions were on point. At the same time I strongly believe in the good faith of our mods and trust their judgment. That trust combined with what I can see, and what I've seen from your past interactions, lead me to believe that the mods were taking what they feel were appropriate actions, so I fully support our moderation team.

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    Whether or not the op "appreciated' the edits -- edits that you're not even calling into question -- has nothing to do with my answer on the question. I brought this to the admins attention in chat in an attempt to do the right thing. You can disagree or agree with those original edits, but I don't see what they have to do with my contribution as an answer. – Evan Carroll Feb 2 '17 at 17:22
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    This site wasn't built for the questioner. We shouldn't be degrading questions because of their preference: we're database administrators, and the site is for a community. We prefer DML/DDL over textual grids. We also shouldn't be censuring answers because of feelings. Just ignore them or vote them down. – Evan Carroll Feb 2 '17 at 17:23
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    That all said, those are my opinions and I dropped that fight. I'm just wondering why my answer was deleted. Concluding with "I fully support our moderation team" doesn't contribute to that quest. It's just an appeal to authority. – Evan Carroll Feb 2 '17 at 17:24
  • @EvanCarroll First of all the central premise in my answer is: a) There is more going on here than is being presented, b) I respect and trust the mod team so I have faith they didn't do something that is crazy. Secondly, this site was built specifically for people that have technical questions. It is a question and answer site. I don't care if the edits were amazing and I'm not qualified to judge those edits anyway. If the OP actively opposes your edits then you shouldn't force your will on the OP even if you feel the OP is wrong. I feel this is a crucial piece you're missing. – Erik Feb 2 '17 at 17:39
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    You say this site is about a community. I say community is about respect, and you clearly weren't respecting that person. My supposition is the mod team was trying to say leave that person and this question alone. That is why they rolled back to rev 1 and deleted your answer. I don't know if that is true or not, but it feels reasonable. You can't bully people and talk about how you are doing it for the benefit of the community. The community is better if you engage in respectful discourse and try to guide people to the best solutions. – Erik Feb 2 '17 at 17:44
  • I disagree. OPs do dumb things all the time like paste pictures for textual grids. I feel we should not allow that. It's a question of formatting. We should take the best formatting possible for the medium which is one tailored to database administrators. I improved his question by fixing that. That said, I was willing to drop that fight. – Evan Carroll Feb 2 '17 at 17:45
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    Like the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. It feels like you were trying to beat the horse with your edits because it wouldn't drink, and then got upset when the sheriff pulled you away. – Erik Feb 2 '17 at 17:46
  • I mean, if the site wasn't tailoring itself to Database Administrators and was about respect or what the OP wanted, we would simply not make anything off topic ever and abandon the idea of policy-creation through meta (where we actively discuss formatting). – Evan Carroll Feb 2 '17 at 17:48
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    I agree that people do dumb things all the time. I know I do. That doesn't mean that we have the right to insist over people's protests like you did. Regardless, I'm going to disengage now. It is clear I not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong. All I know is being this guy isn't productive. – Erik Feb 2 '17 at 17:49
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    As an active contributing member of the site, I do feel I have a claim to see it run properly and to combat dumb things people do, even if they do them all the time. That's why I very often add the DML/DDL to the questions. I want to see everyone gets the best use of the contributions here, and the contribution provided w/ questions is bettered with DML/DDL. But, I'm willing to drop this. – Evan Carroll Feb 2 '17 at 17:52
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One of the considerations (that I am willing to go into here) was that retaining your answer might lead to a continuation of the unhelpful interactions between you and the question author.

Regarding the "edit war" on the question, let me repeat the advice I left on another meta question:

An edit is still fundamentally a suggestion for improvement, even after the Edit Questions and Answers privilege has been earned.

If there is resistance to your suggestion, even unwarranted and unjustifiable resistance -- just let go and move on.

In other words: Do not attempt to force someone to accept an edit. Edits are good; fighting is bad.

Ultimately there are moderators to adjudicate in the rare cases where an author's preference might need to be overridden for the benefit of the wider community.

Enough time has now passed that I consider the risks have diminished. In light of that, I have reinstated your answer on this occasion.


For the record, I completely support the original actions of jcolebrand. He is also aware that I am undeleting your answer now.

We try hard to avoid suspending people on dba.se. Wherever possible, we will take less serious action in the hope that the underlying message is received and acted on.

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